Click on NOTE CATEGORIES to browse by topic, read through the entire archives, or type a topic in the search box.This is a special episode with two features and several guests!
In the first feature, biomechanist Katy Bowman is joined by psychologists Dr Diana Hill and Dr Kelly McGonigal. Katy and Diana have co-written a new book “I know I should Exercise But… 44 Reasons We Don’t Move and How to Get Over Them” and they came together with Kelly, author of the “The Joy of Movement”, to talk about personal obstacles to movement, movement frameworks & vocabulary and how to find your ‘movement genius’.
In our second feature Katy welcomes author and masters athlete Brad Kearns, to talk about the minimalist five-toed shoe company Peluva, one of our podcast sponsors. Brad shares the early history of the company and how you go about making a minimalist shoe. Katy and Brad discuss the niche that Peluva fills in the minimal shoe market and Brad shares his favourite customer success stories.
Venn Design | Correct Toes | Movemate | Wildling | Peluva | Smart Playrooms
OVERVIEW
(time codes are approximate)
00:06:25 - Conversation with Katy, Diana, and Kelly (Jump to section)
00:17:00 - Struggles and Motivation - grief, neurotype, perimenopause, pain and more (Jump to section)
00:34:45 - Jeannette and Katy Summarize (Jump to section)
00:38:00 - Listener question brought to you by Movemate (Jump to section)
00:51:30 - Interview with Brad Kearns of Peluva (Jump to section)
LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW
Kelly’s book The Joy of Movement
Katy’s full podcast with Dr. McGonigal and Diana Hill
I Know I Should Exercise, But …
SPONSORS: THE DYNAMIC COLLECTIVE
This episode of The Move Your DNA podcast is brought to you by The Dynamic Collective, a group of six companies that create products and services helping you to move more. The Dynamic Collective is:
Smart Playrooms: Design and products for active living indoors. Smart Playrooms is offering our listeners a 10% discount on monkey bars, rock wall panels, and rock wall holds with the code DNA10 valid until April 2025
Correct Toes: Anatomic silicone toe spacers and other foot rehabilitation tools. Correct Toes are offering our listeners a $5 discount on all purchases with the code myd-toes5 valid until April 2025
Movemate: World's first dynamic active standing board designed to make movement a natural part of your workday, without disrupting your workflow!
Venn Design: Functional furniture for a balanced life - sit still less and move more
Wildling: Minimal footwear handmade from natural materials for toddlers, kids, and adults. Wildling is offering our listeners free shipping on all purchases until April 2025 with the code KATYWILDLINGS
Peluva: Five-toe minimalist shoes that are functional and stylish. Peluva are offering our listeners 15% off their purchase with the code NUTRITIOUSMOVEMENT valid until April 2025
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
(Theme music)
This is the Move Your DNA podcast, a show where movement science meets your everyday life. I'm Katy Bowman, biomechanist, author, and my biggest hurdle to movement right now is temperature. And I'm Jeannette Loram, biologist, movement teacher, and I know I should do more strength training but I prefer to swim. Every body is welcome here. Let's get started.
(Music fade)
KATY: Ok so today's episode is extra special. I have a new, I can't believe it, psychology book coming out. I did not write it alone, because I am not a psychologist. But I did write it with psychologist, Dr. Diana Hill, who has been on the podcast a few times. The book is called I Know I Should Exercise But ... (dot dot dot): 44 reasons we don't move and how to get over them. And I'm just going to show you the cover, Jeannette. Those of you listening are not going to be able to see it. But the cover is a treadmill serving as a clean clothes resting place - big pile of laundry to fold. And did you see the contest that we had?
JEANNETTE: I loved it. And you know, I actually did comment on your Instagram. Because I laughed so hard. I don't know if it was your picture or if it was somebody in the contest where they had their hanging bar with all their laundry hanging on the hanging bar. And I am totally guilty of doing that. I hang all my kids' school shirts, which I don't want to get crumpled. And I'm like where am I going to hang them? And they're on my hanging bar. That's just me.
KATY: You just felt seen.
JEANNETTE: I did. I did.
KATY: So the contest was send us your photos of your exercise space that is maybe not being utilized as much as you would like. And the photos we got were spectacular. We'll be releasing some of them. The book is coming out March 4th. My birthday is the official pub date. The newsletter will have some of the photos. So if you sign up for the newsletter or you can watch for it on socials. But our favorite, kind of our company-wide favorite image, was a jogging stroller that had a bird's nest built in it, with a bird sitting in it. The bird actively nesting and was just looking at the photographer "why are you here in my space?"
JEANNETTE: That is awesome.
KATY: That's some time. That is some time that that has not been touched. Because it's a big bird and it's a big nest.
JEANNETTE: I love that.
KATY: Yeah.
JEANNETTE: That is amazing.
KATY: We definitely got a lot of "I can totally relate to that." So in honor of this book about psychological barriers to movement, today's conversation is actually kind of a mash up. It's kind of a unique episode. I did a much longer conversation with two psychologists and authors, Dr. Diana Hill who is my co-author on this book and has also written other books about pact psychology which is the technique that's used in this book. And also Dr. Kelly McGonigal, which I imagine many listeners will know. She's a psychologist who specializes in the mental health benefits to movement. She's got a beautiful book that I blurbed four years ago: The Joy of Movement. And she works at Stanford. And she's a dance teacher too. And if you want to listen to this full conversation, we'll link to it in the show notes. It's going to live in Diana Hill's podcast Wise Effort. But we've pulled out some really, I think interesting to our listeners, segments. And in the second half of the show is an interview with Brad Kearns. Brad is, among other things, a masters athlete and author. But today he's going to be here talking about the 5 toe minimalist shoes company, Peluva, which is one of our Dynamic Collective sponsors. That was a really fun conversation too. But before we jump into these conversations we want to thank all of our Dynamic Collective. Our Dynamic Collective is a support of companies that make great products helping you move more. And they support the Move Your DNA podcast. Thank you Thank you! The Dynamic Collective is: Venn Design: beautiful floor cushions and ball seats that keep you moving at home or at the office, Movemate: dynamic active standing boards that invite complex movement into your workday without disrupting your work flow - very important when you're an author and writing a lot, Smart Playrooms: design and products to keep both kids and adults engaged and active in the home space, Correct Toes: soft silicone toe spacers that can be worn barefoot or in shoes, Peluva: five toe minimalist sport shoes, ideal for higher impact activities. We'll be talking to them today. And Wildling: minimal footwear for toddlers, kids, and adults made from natural materials. Ok, so let's get into our conversation with Diana and Kelly. And we're going to start with an opening question that I had about when people have barriers to movement, where getting any sort of movement is valuable, is the idea of a movement as nutrition framework too cumbersome. Or does it become a barrier? I was interested in their opinion of those challenged by movement. So here is a hefty chunk, I would say, of the conversation between Diana, Kelly and I. And we covered lots of things: movement, vocabulary around movement, some of our personal experiences and the pathways to movement. And again, if you're interested in the entire show, we'll link to the full episode.
DIANA: And I was just curious for both of what the value of movement is, the core value of movement is. And if it feels like movement is something that serves a physical need? The emotional need? The social need? The energetic? Does it serve how you show up in life? I heard you, Katy, talk about that. Your morning workout. Is movement something that allows you to engage with roles and relationships in a way that works for you. I would love to just hear how you think about the value of movement.
KATY: Well it's actually on my list to talk about this because I was interested in your take, both Kelly and Diana, because there definitely is a big movement towards movement being a keystone for mental health. And the fact that it relates to emotional regulation, feelings of joy, feeling meaningful in your own life. And I'm a biomechanist, and so I really look at the effect of tissues. How does movement affect tissues. But I don't disregard the brain. The brain is a tissue and it has a function. And so I wouldn't necessarily put those things completely in separate boxes. But yes, I have a movement as nutrition approach to the point where it's fairly rigid in the sense that nutrition is rigid. I mean, what makes a macronutrient, a protein, a fat, or carbohydrate has a fairly stiff container around it. It's not really open to interpretation: what is a fat and what is a protein? And the same thing goes for minerals and vitamins. Those have really discreet containers. And so I think that there's a lot to movement in the sense of we need to fill a lot of different discreet containers when it comes to movement - that movement minutes isn't really enough when we're talking about the physical outcomes that people might require for their physical well-being. That being said, when someone is in a movement drought, so to speak ...my question specifically to you two was, I tend to talk about movement in this nutritional way and really going to great lengths to outline the different categories of movement. For me it's fairly freeing because I know exactly what I need and it allows me to shuffle in the time of day. And you don't need everything every single day in the way your daily nutritional diet doesn't need to be exactly the same every day. But weekly, you know, monthly, you know, you need to be hitting some boxes. So I find a great relief and flexibility in actually having these more discreet containers. But when someone is first getting started sometimes the resistance, the barrier, is so large that it's really like, "Just do whatever you want until you get to that place where you feel mentally better." You feel a physical relief. Where I would argue that maybe some of that physical relief and the positive feels that we have associated with just taking any action is similar to the relief that you would get after not eating for a long time and it doesn't matter if you're checking a nutritional box. A calorie is like the ultimate box to check at first when you're starving. Who cares if you're getting vitamin d if you're starving. But I do see that a lot of the language... so I guess my question was; would you want to guide someone through nutrition, to say, just eat whatever makes you feel good. Or would we want to dial it in a little bit to say, "well there's some nutritional boxes you want to hit. And you also need to sort of like what you're eating." Both. We have to be a little Italian about it as well. There's more than nutrients in food. So I wonder a lot, does my attempt at offering something cohesive and ... I don't feel it's rigid, but it's well defined around movement ... how do you two feel, who are dealing probably more often with people who are coming to solve mental or emotional situations. Do you feel like that would be a roadblock to some people? Where they just want to be told, just pick whatever movement feels good?
KELLY: Well I feel like I get to be the great conductor of people's physical experiences. So the core needs that people are meeting when they come to my classes. So for people who don't know, I teach a range of dance classes and movement classes that are really about expression and connection and music. And so I know that the core need - most people that come to my class they will tell me things like, "I want to reconnect to joy." "I'm lonely. I need community." They don't always say, "I'm lonely." But they might say, "I don't know anyone here." They want to feel free. They want to have an opportunity to laugh and to laugh with other people. They want to have challenges where they can make progress towards something they value. And people coming to my class, that's often to feel like a dancer. And to have these great moments of moving together in synchrony that help us feel like a part of something bigger than ourselves. So I know that's the core need that my classes meet. And then I view it as my job to deal with the nutrient side. So the physical design. In my classes I'm always thinking about the biomechanics of it, how we're moving through different planes of movement, how we're working agility and stability, how we're training all these different components of movement. And also I think about the nutrients, the macronutrients of emotional feeling. So I know that there are certain movements that make people more likely to feel joy. Certain movements that make people more likely to feel powerful. Movements that are more likely to help give people permission to feel difficult emotions and ways of moving. And so I get to choreograph and design and experience where the people in my class don't have to think, "Did I do my agility drill and did I train stability in the same class." I'll take care of that for you so that you can experience the higher level - what it feels like to move to music that moves you emotionally and see all these people smiling at you. So I think they're both really, really important. And in the same way that I think intuitive eating has some challenges, I think intuitive moving might have some challenges too. Because many people don't even have a vocabulary of movement that fills their physical needs as well as their emotional needs. To the degree that you figure it out, a lot of the physical side, I spent years getting to know the emotional language of movement. And that's so exciting to be able to try to give people that particular movement vocabulary.
DIANA: And then I see my role is how do I get someone from my office, who is saying they feel disconnected, they are not feeling in contact with the present moment, they're lacking joy and they feel overwhelmed by the thought of walking into a class like Kelly's. How do we get through those psychological barriers to get into the space of nutritious movement or joyful movement? Because we know, I think all three of us have experience and worked with people with what's available, and those core human yearnings that you're talking about do map on to our current understanding of what humans need to thrive. We do need to have connection. We do need to have a sense, especially that part around developing competency, doing something that's a little hard and getting better at it. That feeling - like movement is such a beautiful playground for that but then translates into life. Because you're working hard here and you can see how that can apply to work. Or that can apply to your relationship. And how do you tolerate discomfort? And it is, for many people, that leap. How do I get through all the thoughts that I have about walking into a space or the judgement that I have about my body or that I just don't want to or I'm too tired or my life is too busy, to get there.
KELLY: I know. That's why I loved your book. Your book is so good! I have it right here. I don't know how much you all are promoting it yet. But when I read it I was like, "I wish I could - every single page - I wish I could say this to people." Particularly people who are thinking "Maybe I should try a class" or a new form of movement or that I don't have time or I'm not going to belong or I might hurt myself or I've no energy. All of those things. Yeah.
DIANA: Yeah. So there's a trifecta here. Because it feels like with The Joy of Movement what that book opened up was "oh my gosh, movement is so much more than what we've been thinking about in terms of movement." In terms of psychology and the benefits of it: social benefits, community benefits, just joyous play benefits. And Nutritious Movement opens up our mind that movement doesn't have to look a certain way. That flexibility that you're talking about, Katy, we can build it into our lives. Those two, I think, together is sort of we now have a path of how to do this differently than maybe the way that we all have been thinking about exercise. "I know I should exercise but..." And then how do we get on that path? How do you have the psychological flexibility to take that risk to start doing some of the things that we know are beneficial? I have a question for you both. Because sometimes some of the barriers that we write about in terms of not having enough time or the last time you were unmotivated or just how or if you personally struggle with movement. Or maybe it's personally struggle with thoughts around if "I haven't moved enough today". It could be that too.
KATY: And I guess for me I haven't really struggled with the motivation to move because it's very cerebral for me. And as a personality type, I am not, and I don't know if this is actually a personality type. You two would probably know more. I'm not really heavily influenced by emotions in general. I'm a very stoic kind of person. You both laughed so, is that right? Why are you laughing?
DIANA: No, I laugh because I'm trained as an emotion scientist. And it was funny because it's so great. Isn't it wonderful when you have people in conversation who experience life differently. I laugh because I'm so excited about what you might say next.
KATY: And I don't know if it's a deficit or if it's just my neurotype or whatever. But I don't really orient emotionally. I tend to orient cognitively. And for me I don't have a hard time doing the things that I cognitively decided that I need to do. For example, I can't walk by a piece of trash, even though it would be hard to bend over and pick up. Now that I've seen it, I can't not pick it up. I don't want it to be there. I'm physically able to pick it up. And I can't walk by litter and just say, "Oh well, it's there. Someone else should pick it up." I just can't do that. So that's just me around movement in general. So always getting it done is not challenging for me. But I think also that's because I left the idea of a workout, a daily workout, behind many years ago and went to a more movement rich lifestyle. So the chances of me being derailed or disrupted by something influencing this harder container. Right? This hour-long container that has a start and stop time that I have to accommodate isn't present. So it might not only be the way I am. It might be the way that I've set things up where movement is just sort of happening shorter durations but kind of peppered throughout the day. But I would say that since entering perimenopause, there's a certain amount of, I don't know if apathy is the right word, that I have towards things I'm supposed to do overall. And so, it's going to be interesting to see how this new version of myself, where it's sort of like I can do what I want. That kind of feeling. How I still want to do movement so it's easy for me to do the things that I am intrinsically motivated to do - that really align with my values. And then my lifestyle is sort of supporting. So I can feel that little challenge of "I don't feel like doing that right now." And I don't feel bad about not wanting to do it. I'm going to move in a different form later on throughout the day. So that's my relationship to motivation right now. Talk to me in a couple of years.
KELLY: Yeah, that's really interesting. Because I always say, this is my temperament but a lot of people also feel this way. Where even though I love movement and I love how it makes me feel, if I could design a life where I was moving most of the day, I would. But I never want to do it before I start it. Never. I wake up. I don't want to get out of bed. I think about exercise. I don't want to teach class. And I don't mean I don't want to but there's a part of me, it's partly anxiety, it's partly that temperament of always wanting to withdraw and be safe that there's always some part of me that doesn't feel like it and doesn't want to. And I also ... I'm usually in physical pain. It's one of the reasons that I came to movement. I have a few different things that create pain in my body persistently. And so that's a barrier in itself where you're thinking, "do I have the energy?" It's not always easy to be in my body and movement definitely keeps you in your body. But that's so different than the big question, "Do I want to?" And that's, for me for motivation, and it's not just for movement. Because I have that same relationship with everything. Do I want to write my book? Do I want to go visit family? There's just always something in me, some part of me that doesn't want to and would retreat rather than engage with life. So I always had to be very clear about the life that I want rather than check in moment to moment with what I feel like doing. Because for me, that's not a good way to make decisions.
DIANA: And it's getting used to that friendly "I don't want to". Getting to know that they're always going to show up. And how to continue to do the big want when the "I don't want to" is there. Katy, I'm kind of the opposite with you in terms of movement. I don't want to do nutritious movement. I don't want to incorporate movement throughout my day. I'd much rather do it for 30 minutes and be done with it. And have it cleaned and contained and that I know I've checked that box. And so for me it's actually been a real challenge to get out of that way of thinking. It's more comfortable for me to follow the rules of movement. But those rules of movement also limit my movement because if I can't follow those rules then I just throw it out the door for the day. So in a lot of ways, back to the trash example, I actually think it would be a good practice to walk by a piece of trash just to prove to yourself that you can. Because there were a lot of statements in there. "I can't walk by a piece of trash without picking it up." Well you can, Katy. But the things that our mind tells us and then we automatically just follow what our mind is saying without that bigger "What is it that I really want?" Because yes... and I wouldn't say ... not everyone has had the... maybe when they were children they had experiences of joy around movement. Maybe we can all remember a time of moving our bodies. But not everyone ...
KELLY: Not me! Early movements were not fun. P.E. Ridicule. Slowest person in the class. Can't catch or throw anything. Yeah. Many of us also have some very traumatic experiences related to movement.
DIANA: And also one of the reasons why girls stop moving is because of criticism about their body shape and size from an early age. They pull out of sports much earlier. So for people that haven't had that experience of "it feels good. I want that." It's how do we get to that experience? And finding what works for you as an individual which may be really different at different stages of your life. And maybe for you, Katy, now that you're in perimenopause, maybe doing rebellious types of things because your perimenopausal self wants to rebel.
KATY: Well, I love how different it is. It's really nice to be reminded of how different we are in the inside. Even though to the outside you see, maybe, three intact solid exercise habits, what's behind them is entirely different. And it's not like everyone's like, "Whoo I love to do this!" But yet it's still being done.
KELLY: And I always like the idea that we have some factory settings that aren't so helpful, you know, related to movement or other things. And some factory settings that are really helpful. And often when it comes to falling in love with movement, it's about figuring out what the factory setting was that when you end up in that environment, or doing that particular movement ... I've heard from so many people they say, "Oh this is what my body was born to do." I was joking, Katy and I were saying we had some earlier experiences with movement that weren't so great. I mean if you'd have looked at me in gym class up until 4th grade, you would have thought this is somebody who is going to grow up and avoid all movement for the rest of their life. Because this is so humiliating and she's so awful at everything. But thank goodness I found dance. And that moving to music is really different. And following other peoples' movement patterns, being able to mirror somebody else moving, that's a form of empathy. And it was like, "Woah! This is so different." And I've heard from so many people when they got into a row boat, or they stepped into water after decades of not being in water. Or they lifted a kettlebell. Or they rode a horse. Or whatever it is. They were like, "Oh! My brain and my body. This fits." And so when you look for that factory setting you can look for the thing that just kind of lights you up. And to trust that there's something in there too. That there's going to be some part of you who is going to just come alive.
DIANA: And I think we have sort of I call it a movement genius, this next piece of work that I'm working on around Wise Effort - what is our genius? That there's a movement genius that has to do with our emotional intelligence. It has to do with our abilities that we're just naturally born with. Our interests - what feels like you're in flow when you're doing it. It's not dance for me, Kelly.
KELLY: What is yours? What is yours?
DIANA: Mine's in nature. If I go back to being a little kid, we would go down to the creek when I was little. And all the kids would try running up and down the concrete wall of the creek. And that was too scary for me. I would go off by myself to go collect the little miner's lettuce and the little tiny flowers that gather in the miner's lettuce. And that's my movement genius. Plants and moving to see plants whether it's running or walking or gardening, I'm in flow. So I think it's that kind of getting to know what you're drawn to, what you're interested in. What is your ... they talk about personality more as personality pattern not style as much. So what is your personality pattern? And how does that pattern impact your movement and how you want to move? With people or alone or both or large groups or small groups. And when you find that movement genius then you pair it with your movement values: of the why behind your movement. And when you get that pairing then you really have a sweet spot. It's like something you want. You crave. And I think all of us are experiencing that in our lives. We naturally found our way there in our own unique way.
KELLY: So Katy. What's yours? What's your movement genius? I mean we could probably guess, but I want to hear you say it.
KATY: Um, what is my movement genius? I think if I could move every single day, I do love walking, but I would say my movement genius is probably moving in water. Moving in wild water.
KELLY: Oh! Moving in wild water!
KATY: Wild water even more than a pool. Give me ice cold. I'll hike up eight miles just to find the tarn, the freezing tarn to get in. And I just want to say to everyone listening, this also requires experimentation. And so when we're in a culture that does not expose... for most people their exposure to the buffet of movement available is going to be through their school experience. And it's going to be this - for some horrifying for others wonderful. Because for many people that athletic challenge team effort working together as a group knowing that you're playing a role - an essential role - in a group of people. Then there's this "are you a defender?" Are you someone naturally who is a defender or are you someone who is a score-er. And to really see those roles develop, it can be wonderful for many people. And then there are people for whom they need to discover a surfboard to realize that they're meant to move paddling out by themselves, man vs nature, human vs nature, something big. You just need to experiment with a lot of different things. And if you have kids, recognizing that school might not contain, P.E. might not contain the inspiration to help them track it down. There's a lot of variables.
DIANA: Yeah. It's like trying lots of different foods.
KATY: The same thing foods
DIANA: You just need to sample to figure out what it is that you like. Or even sample it multiple times to see if you like it.
KELLY: During the pandemic when I suddenly went from being very out in the world and interacting with people to being at home and very isolated, that was the first time in my life I experienced the value of high intensity interval training. I never in my life wanted to work that hard. I just didn't. I was like "why?" But because that sharp contrast, the sudden loss of meaningful work - because almost all my work evaporated, meaningful social contact - because almost all of my social contact evaporated. And then you add to that the fear and the confusion that was going on at that time, sent me into such a powerful depression that I suddenly understood why you might want to get your heart rate so high to feel alive. And what it feels like to push yourself to keep going when you want to stop is like saying to experience the will to live as opposed to despair. And I don't do that training as much anymore. Since then it's tapered off. But at different times of your life you might find that your context has created a different need. And a different part of you will rise up and want to express itself.
KATY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Definitely your age and stage affects your movement diet. You need to extract different nutrients out of movements at different times. So again with the language. The language that you have around movement and the language that you have for your own physicality - developing both of those will help you experiment.
JEANNETTE: Well I loved listening to that conversation. I've listened to the whole conversation which I do recommend but those three segments really spoke to me. What I most enjoyed was the thing that you pointed out; how you all three on the surface of it, have a robust movement practice but you have different struggles and different attitudes to movement. And I really saw myself in some of what each of you said, which was really nice. "Oh yes, that's me!" and "Oh yes, that's me." Particularly when Diana had said she used to like "oh there's my movement and now I can check it off and move on with my day." That was definitely how I viewed movement 20 years ago. And I also really appreciated seeing three people who have written about movement be really honest with their own struggles. Because I think we look at people and think "oh they've got it all together and they don't struggle in the same way that I do." And that's just not true. We're all in this together.https://wiseeffort.com/episode/how-to-fall-in-love-with-movement-with-kelly-mcgonigal-and-katy-bowman
KATY: I think it's almost the opposite. When you see someone really dedicating a large portion of their life to something, it's probably less because it comes natural and easy to them. And more like it was this source of turmoil. Or it was a problem and so more energy had to go towards understanding it. And yes, we definitely have a habit of putting people on a pedestal. And I think we can just let a lot of that go. My favorite thing about the full episode is the idea of because of us being so internally different and so externally different in our situations that while all of this scientific information is helpful, ultimately I think the scaffolding of that scientific - these tenets that we have, that you and I discuss so regularly - is for you to self experiment with and understand rather than things becoming extremely dogmatic. I think we just have a hard time understanding what science is and how you can pull out tenets in a laboratory and in isolation but that the tricky part is of course when you integrate them and apply them. And science and application are not the same field. There's applied science and there's science for good reason. So yes, listen to that whole podcast episode when you have a little bit longer time. It's an hour and fifteen minutes. But it's nice conversation and if it just makes you feel better about yourself to be like, "oh I'm not all over the place as I thought." We are all struggling with the same. We might have different elements but we're all struggling. We're all suffering. And we're all winning. And we're all fixing it and nailing it. All those things are true. Everything all at once, I believe, is that movie that won the Oscar.
JEANNETTE: Right.
JEANNETTE: So we're going to have a little interlude before the next conversation with a listener question.
KATY: This listener question is brought to you by Movemate. Movemate makes dynamic active standing boards ideal for standing desk users. The boards are made of separately articulating slats of wood that enable complex movement while you work. While you're standing there you can put it underneath your feet. And we've talked about it before, lots of complex lower body movement. A lot more than I would say a standard single piece of material wobble board. It's a really very interesting and beautiful design. We both have one. I know for me it really works out my ankles and feet. Same for you?
JEANNETTE: Absolutely.
KATY: Hamstrings too.
JEANNETTE: Oh interesting. I feel it in the achilles tendon. Right down at the calves I get a lot of, which I love and I need that. It's fantastic for me.
KATY: Well, I've started trying to do other big moves while on it.
JEANNETTE: Me too! I did an arabesque on it yesterday. Doing my warrior 3 type things.
KATY: Exactly.
JEANNETTE: What's wonderful about it, I think, in case you think ... it's actually quite stable. You're not going to fall off it when you're working, which I really appreciate when I'm working.
KATY: It'd be hard to do your best work if you're afraid for your life.
JEANNETTE: So I was actually experimenting with Warrior 3 on it yesterday which is an arabesque type movement. And trying to get on the edge of it to give me a little bit more instability. It was fun. It was fun.
KATY: Good for you, yes! And it's fun. Our listener questions, they don't always fit the theme. But I felt that this question was really relevant to our topic today. There are personal movement struggles, but sometimes people also struggle with someone else influencing their movement or not moving themselves and you have to pick up the slack in some ways. So that's today's question. You want to give it a read?
JEANNETTE: Yes. "Right now I have three small kids so I am definitely in the suck." I know.
KATY: I'm in the suck? Is that a thing?
JEANNETTE: I just want to say, wait until they're teenagers!
KATY: Yeah!
JEANNETTE: So three small kids.
KATY: Three small kids. You're in the suck and the suck might be longer than you realize it was going to be. But in a different way.
JEANNETTE: That's right. The modality of suck changes.
KATY: I feel a parenting book title. It's like: In the Suck. Welcome to Parenting.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. That would be good. You'd have people lining up to buy it. Ok, "so I am definitely in the suck in plenty of ways. But ironically more in struggling with how to balance my relationship with my in-laws, especially my father-in-law. I told him yesterday that he needs to get better at walking or he needs to consider getting a power chair because he cannot just expect everyone to push him around as it isn't fair to us. Could you please do a podcast about in-laws and what to do when they have never prioritized their own health and just count on you to take up the slack for them." So, not a full episode but we can answer the question.
KATY: I would not do a full episode on in-laws. Nor am I an expert in in-laws. I love my in-laws. I don't have that much guidance for the relationship with in-laws. But I will refer you to the new book, I Know I Should Exercise, But... The thing with this title, we picked this title because it seems like the person reading it is struggling with movement. But it really is about all the different struggles with movement. Including there's an entire chapter on other people influencing your movement. It's hard to move with other people, is the name of the chapter. So I was looking through. Every chapter is organized into reasons. And of course, we only covered forty-four reasons, not a thousand reasons. But these reasons were, I would say, good umbrella categories for other sub-reasons. And the reason that I associated most with this particular question was, "my partner hates to move and I can't get them on board to move with me". So I'm going to give a little bit of advice from that answer because telling people what they need to do doesn't work. So you've got small children, so you're in the suck now. So you can just apply all this to your teenagers when they come later. When you've got younger kids, they're the rare exception where they do what you say. That's about to end, my friend. That's about to end. And so when you realize that that strategy of telling, especially other grown adults, what they need to do or what they should do, it's instant shut down. In the same way if I came up to you, dear listener in the suck, or Jeannette, or someone else and said, "You need to do this." there's just a giant resistance that comes up to that sort of approach. So the skill that is broken down in this particular answer is something called Motivational Interviewing. And motivational interviewing, you haven't got your copy of the book yet, have you Jeannette?
JEANNETTE: Actually I literally got it in my inbox.
KATY: Ok. So digital copy.
JEANNETTE: I got a digital copy. So I haven't read this yet. My face just kind of ...
KATY: I saw!
JEANNETTE: I have not heard of motivational interviewing before.
KATY: Yeah, so motivational interviewing. And Diana is explaining this psychological principle in the book where it's used often in negotiations, like hostage negotiations. It is you ask questions. You don't give orders. You ask questions. And the questions could be along the lines of, I was just trying to think of in this particular situation, "How does it feel for you, how are you feeling when we're going somewhere and you have to ask to be pushed. Do you wish you were able to get somewhere on your own physically." And I assume, because of the way this question is phrased, that this is not someone with a disability. Or disability is tricky because there's different levels of it. But without some sort of stronger barrier but it's a lack of maybe conditioning at this point. And you go through a series of questions. And I need to be, I would say, from a compassionate place and from a place that you're actually trying to understand. Not where you're trying to complete the exercise from the book so that they just up and start exercising because you want them to. Yeah, you just create this conversation and you're curious. "What did you used to like to do with your body that you can't right now?" Sort of the things that I opened up My Perfect Movement Plan with. And when the person generates their own answers to what they would like to be able to do with their body, what they are actually missing, then they themselves realize that they themselves want better conditioning, want to move more. "What type of exercises would you like to do?" "I hate to exercise." "What did you used to like to do with your body that wasn't exercise?" "Oh I used to love to go fishing (or I used to like to go play golf)" I'm just making up things. But once that person answers your questions from their own point of view, they are starting to motivate themselves to be able to make the change. So I would point everyone, of course, to this book. That's why I wrote it. And then use it kind of like a field guide. You spot the problem that shows up in your life or a friend's life or your kids' life and you flip it open to that section and you become fluent in some of the tools. Some of the tools are psychological. Some of the tools are mechanical - exercise based. It's my favorite book. There I said it. And then, I just want to say a little bit more about this question that we didn't read. It says (laughs) "I'm sure I'm not alone in my frustration. Lately your flour sack story has really been resonating with me. But I have been able to channel my stress into walks and movement snacks. Although a full-sized punching bag might realistically be my next birthday present to myself." And the flour sack story that they're referring to I shared in the podcast about spicy ones, spicy children. I am a spicy adult; people who struggle with just really strong feelings. And there's more to it than that. You can go back to listen. So in my frustration - it's called controlled destruction. You can sort of equalize the way you're feeling on the inside with some controlled destruction. So I had a moment with the flour sack. You're welcome everybody. Just in case you thought I was on a pedestal. It is covered with flour. And I am not on a pedestal.
JEANNETTE: I also just loved that story.
KATY: Why?
JEANNETTE: It was more that it must have been so satisfying. I can see how satisfying it would be.
KATY: It's so satisfying!! I had a teenager in my house yesterday. We need - having to clean something up. And in the middle also a spicy one in my house. Needing to clean up was cleaning up but breaking the dish, you know, throwing it into the sink. But it was in the process of cleaning up while they did it. But just that controlled destruction. It feels so satisfying. And it's better than uncontrolled destruction. So it's nice to do controlled destruction when it's something that's not valuable. It's like I'm going to take this box and I'm going to rip it up or kick the crap out of a really big box. And you're making the choice to channel it into something that doesn't hurt anybody else or has no big consequence. It feels great. And there's other tools too, but sometimes that's the tool we need to reach for.
JEANNETTE: And we'll link that to Spicy Kids in the show notes. So you can listen to that.
KATY: And spicy adults.
JEANNETTE: Yes. Yes.
KATY: And why movement is so important for spicy ones. But the reason I said that is because I asked Diana how she would answer this question. And so this is what she had to say: "It sounds like you are carrying a lot right now." (and this is what I love about Diana, such a psychologist. I hear you. This is very hard. She's so great at her job.) "Before taking any action, I would encourage you to pause and check in with what's showing up inside of you. Frustration, exhaustion, maybe even guilt or resentment. Instead of judging these feelings, what if you simply made space for them? They make sense. You care deeply and you also have limits. It sounds like your values, possibly fairness or honesty and even self respect guided your conversation with your father-in-law. And yet it sounds like there's some lingering distress. Maybe the next step is asking yourself how do I want to show up in this relationship given the reality of what is happening? What is one small action I could take that I would feel proud of, even if it's uncomfortable? And how can I channel my stress into movement?" Sounds like she's doing that. This is what she says, "Maybe that punching bag can serve as a reminder that you are strong. That you can hold space for both the struggle and the love and that you get to choose moment by moment how you respond to the challenge. There's a lot you can't control about your in-laws. Remember that struggling against what you cannot control only makes things worse and will exhaust you. Put your energy where you have power: into movement, into radical acceptance, and into self-compassion. This is hard." I thought that was nice.
JEANNETTE: That's really nice. Yeah. That was a perfect question for today.
KATY: I thought I mean for today. Thanks to Movemate for sponsoring that question. It just seemed like a nice continuation of the theme of these internal mechanics. Just as important as, I would say, the external mechanics. They're like the mental mechanics as well as what's going on with the limbs and the more tangible parts of your body. Ok, our final segment today is going to be my interview with Brad Kearns of Peluva Footwear. Peluva are one of our Dynamic Collective and they fill a much needed niche in the minimal shoe market.
BRAD: Katy, it's always a pleasure. And we're going to hit it hard in our brief conversation here. And I look forward to the day that I come join you in person for a studio interview. I want to be the first one in your brand new studio. I can't wait.
KATY: You'd be the first one ever. It is actually an old studio. But you can be the first person if you come up and visit me. So we're going to talk today about Peluva. You are ... tell me your relationship to Peluva.
BRAD: Well, this is the new 5 toe minimalist shoe footwear company founded by Mark Sisson and his son, Kyle. And as maybe some of your listeners know, Mark and I have been working together for a long time promoting the primal, ancestral lifestyle, writing books like the Primal Blueprint, Keto Reset Diet, our recent book called Born to Walk. And so this shoe company has been a really exciting launch. I'm a part owner and strong member of a very small team. But the response has been tremendous. We launched in 2023 and people are really embracing, thanks to people like you spreading the message, that we want to carefully and gracefully transition to a more barefooted, minimalist shoe inspired lifestyle instead of succumbing to the damage and destruction caused by regular shoes in all the categories: dress shoes, work shoes, and especially athletic and fitness shoes where that's when we really have a strong call to try to emulate the barefoot functionality.
KATY: You mean when we're under heavy loads. We're just under heavy loads when we're moving versus doing some of the other activities we're talking about. I wanted to start with why Peluva, the name. Where does that name come from?
BRAD: So in Portuguese it means foot glove: Pe as in Latin, pedestrian/pedestal, and then Luva is glove in Portuguese. And your Portuguese listeners might say, "Wait a second. I've never heard of that word." So it's a made up word but it means foot glove in Portuguese.
KATY: Ok, and then what, I always ask everyone who is a sponsor of our podcast, that they've made these brands. What is some of the work that goes into making a shoe? I make books. I've made DVDs. I know you and Mark have also done a ton of books. You've also made other products. But footwear seems tricky. It's an actual structural thing. And sizing is so tricky. And for people who can't see me hold this up right now, Peluva are a five finger shoe. They are a shoe that has a slot for each one of your toes. So how many iterations does it take to get the acceptable shoe that you're going to end up with? Do you feel like you're done revising? Because I know you're constantly coming out with new products. So what's it like to make a shoe?
BRAD: Oh my goodness. I think it started with a lot of consuming of the various barefoot and minimalist shoe products that have been on the market for ... Vibram five fingers, the original iteration of the 5-toe individual slot shoe came out around 2005, and Mark and I jumped on that as soon as they came out.
KATY: Literally.
BRAD: And he's been...
KATY: You're a long jumper. You're a high jumper.
BRAD: That's right. Yeah. But it's been a long journey using and appreciating these shoes and how they improve your biomechanics and so forth. But then Mark, with his entrepreneurial spirit, after he sold the Primal Kitchen company to Kraft Heinz. He retired for four days. And then his mind went in the other direction of how can I innovate and optimize what's the available products. And as some listeners probably know, the original Vibram shoes had a sensational launch and they became a hot cultural trend. And then I think largely due to people misusing them and misappropriating them and not having that functionality to go and cold turkey switch from giant running shoes to little barefoot slippers, injuries occurred and some bad publicity occurred. And so the company kind of faded from its darling status. And we realized that, of course, this is still the answer. And the minimalist shoe is the key to lifelong foot health and foot functionality and becoming a resilient athlete and a fitness enthusiast. Even if you're using other shoes... you mentioned my high jumping. We'll talk about that further as we get into the show. But of course I'm using high jump spikes with rigid steel plates and spikes sticking out of it, when I practice high jump. And then, to recover from the damage that happens to your feet when you put on crazy shoes like that, I'm wearing Peluvas for the rest of the day and the rest of my life. So back to your question, Mark has been tinkering and tweaking barefoot shoes for a long time. And then went into the R&D and the prototype process actually several years ago. So this has been a long journey. I said we launched in late 2023. And we've had a great response in the first year and a half. But the tinkering and the cobbling has been happening for somewhere around four years. So it took around 3 years of R&D to get the shoe to market. And the way it goes is just as people might dream, and Thomas Edison took the wires from the telephone booth and cobbled together something in the shop, at first you start with gluing and stitching. And then you go to the manufacturing of a prototype. And that's where the factory gets involved and will pump out what you draw out and dream up. That's when you have a lot of back and forth. And the first iterations might be somewhere between ok to terrible to pretty darn good. And then you continue doing this prototype process where you're investing, let's say, in a dozen pairs rather than 12,000 or whatever it is to actually properly launch a company. And what's funny is, people probably know the story of Mark launching the Primal Kitchen enterprise. The first product was mayonnaise that was made with avocado oil instead of the nasty mayonnaise that you find in the store. And so, as you might hear on one of those entrepreneurial podcasts like "How I Built This", Mark will say, "I pulled the trigger and invested in 10,000 jars of mayonnaise and crossed my fingers. And guess what they sold out in 3 days." And then his own comment when he was heading to the warehouse to receive the shipment for the first time he said, "I didn't realize you got to make shoes in every size! Instead of just 10,000 jars of mayonnaise, boom, they're sold out. Now what about the 6 and a halves, and the eights and the this and the that." So he's taken a big risk here with his son, Kyle, and gone all in to stock a warehouse full of shoes so people can go on the website and try them out and order them and start spreading the word and getting that immediate epiphany that "boy this is the way humans are meant to move, and walk, and locomote." So that's, I think, what we're happy to see.
KATY: Well here's just a curiosity of mine, listening to you. What are the sizes that are the most difficult to move? Which I would be the fewest number of people trying to find the size? Do you know that off the top of your head?
BRAD: Yeah, it's a funny question because, of course, the 14s sell less than the average male shoe size. If you go into a store like Foot Locker, you're going to see 9 and a half generally on the wall, which happens to be my size. Back when I was a triathlete I'd get all this stuff because it was the sample size and I could try everything new and fun. But also you know that going into production. So it's this cat and mouse game where the popular sizes are going to sell like crazy. And the big ones aren't going to sell much. But you might sell out of your 100 pairs of 14s at the same rate that you sell out of a 1000 pairs for your 10s.
KATY: Right. So you just don't make the same amount of every single size. You know that probably the extreme sizes, the really large and the really small, there's just fewer feet for those particular shoes. For those of you out there who have foot sizes that are not, you know, in the mean or the average, this is why. Just because it's tricky to make the same number of shoes. It's just not cost effective, I would say, for businesses. It doesn't help those with feet ... so buy multiple pairs. If you like a shoe, buy multiple pairs while you can. That's probably grab 'em while you can. I love minimal footwear. Obviously you've known me for a really long time. And the features of minimal footwear - you've got space for spreadable toes, wider toe box, you don't have as much toe spring, you've got zero lift, zero heel lift, flexible sole. But one of the questions that I have gotten throughout the years is, "What about people who have feet that are already in pain and they've made the transition but they spend a lot of time standing..." If they spend a lot of time moving on firm surfaces, my recommendation has always been, you don't have to transition to every single one of those minimal features. Minimal footwear is really a collection of features. And there are some features that might work better for your body and other features that might not be as effective right now, at least. And so one thing that I really appreciated with the Peluva which I couldn't really appreciate until I put it on. I saw it for a very long time in photos, on the website. But until I put it on, I feel like this shoe is filling a gap in the market which is flat, space for toes, but it's got a little bit of sport cushioning on there which many people need. And which a lot of people need when they're doing physical activities - like higher impact physical activities. So I just wanted to say I think you really filled a gap in the market which is a shoe - it doesn't even have to be for transition - it's just when you're doing a higher load activities and you want a lot of minimal features but you also want a little bit of that cushion for higher load, higher impact activities. Just well done. This is one of the reasons I like it. Because nothing like it exists.
BRAD: Thanks for pointing that out. So in the Peluva Strand lightweight trainer which you put up to the camera and that's our best selling shoe, it has 9mm of cushion. And this is an ode to modern lifestyle and the hard surfaces that we navigate on sidewalk, indoor environment on the wood floors, the marble floors, the gym floor. And even doing things like going out on a rugged trail hike. So it's a little bit of cushion. The true, purist, and the ancestral enthusiast will say, "Well this isn't really barefoot." And if you think how our ancestors walked, they walked on packed African Savannah. They walked on sand. They walked on snow. They are on soft, natural surfaces. There was no such thing as a sidewalk. So we're trying to thread that needle where more people can do more things wearing Peluvas because of this nice cushion and also preserving that barefoot functionality and that ground feel, as it's known. The proprioception of how your feet are interacting with the ground.
KATY: Well for sure. When we talk about what's natural, that's a very complex argument. But we're after loads. We're after really great loads to the feet. And really hard surfaces are tricky for a lot of people. Even if your feet are really adapted to barefoot, and I'll just share my story which I've talked about on this podcast in depth. When I was living in Central America where the housing floors are made out of cement. So I'm put into an environment where I'm standing and walking on cement which is completely novel for me, an avid barefooter and a regular long walker in minimal shoes for over a decade. For almost 15-16 years at this point. Coupled with high volume of movement - walking 5, 6, 7, 8 miles a day carrying loads while in barefoot or minimal shoe conditions in sand which really increased the ranges of motion you use your toes. I ended up with a foot fracture. What I actually needed in this situation for my very strong feet was to dampen the loads of especially that hard surface input. High volume hard surface input. And a lot of people, they work on cement floors. You have anyone who works in the medical community is going to be on linoleum or hard surfaces. And that's why they pick things like Crocs that add a little bit of extra cushion. Maybe you work at Costco. Maybe you work as a teacher. You're on hard surfaces and those themselves are not natural. And so the idea of taking barefoot or minimal conditions to hard surfaces for a large portion of time, I don't think that that's natural. I don't think that you can argue that that's natural. So I just appreciate the option of the cushioning. And the sporty look is fine. I've played racquet sports in these and I just like, especially when I was healing from an injury where I wanted a little bit of extra cushion, I just, again, you filled a hole in the market. All right, so Brad, feedback. What's your coolest user feedback that you've gotten or just a really cool testimonial or something that you're aware of someone's experience in Peluvas.
BRAD: Yeah. We're so heartened to get tons of customer emails and comments. And then when we go to a trade show people have been waiting for something like this and there's been a lot of pent up demand. So we're on the right track, we realize that. And we also really appreciate constructive feedback. Because there's a lot of challenges, and one of them is... and I was just at a conference. It was a female health and weight loss conference in Dallas. And I interacted with 500 females over the course of the weekend at my little booth trying on Peluva shoes. So I got to see 500 different pairs of bare feet. And there's so much variation you can't even believe it. People get a little shy, "Well, my second toe is a little bit longer than my big toe." And she takes off her shoe and it's like a half an inch longer. I'm like ok, we're going to find a different size for you. So there's a lot of feedback that's going into more R&D and making a better fit and a better comfort. And it's like an educational experience to even put these on. And so when people have difficulty putting them on, which a lot of people do, our general response is, "that's great because that means you desperately need them because your toes have been crunched together your whole life and you don't even have the dexterity to spread them out and slide them into their individual slots. But over time what's so cool, and to answer your question, that's one of the most fun feedback to hear is that these are way easier to put on now because my toes have finally relaxed and realigned into proper barefoot style positioning rather than the wedge positioning. One of my favorite customer reports is from my mom, Gail Kearns, she's 87 years old. I said, "Mom, we're getting this shoe company started. You got to try these." And she had that initial resistance as some people do do to the different look of looking down at a 5 toe shoe. But I got her in there. And she immediately began using them successfully for her morning walk. So this brings up an important point where we encourage you to walk in these immediately because there's a very low barrier of entry. But at the same time, we're begging you, please don't get these shoes and go for your usual jog in a brand new shoe that you're not well adapted to. And maybe you never want to do long distance running in Peluvas, because there are specialized shoes for that. I'm not going to high jump in that. I'm going to put on my high jump spikes as I mentioned. And all the other things that we do with specialized shoes, you're working in construction, you're going to wear your boots with the steel toes so you don't get a nail through there. But the Peluvas are more about, we call it precovery and recovery from all the other stuff that we require modern day specialized shoes now.
KATY: I think that's a great point that you're making about certainly in this community - the wellness community - and then with the subset of minimal footwear enthusiasts, is sort of like a gut reaction against any sort of - either like a barefoot extremist wearing shoes at all or wearing any non minimal shoes. But shoes are just tools. And there are different tools of the trade. And you mentioned steel toed boots. There's a lot of people in the military who have to wear, or not just military but really any uniformed police and firefighters, right? Where there's specifically acceptable shoes for the trade that they're engaged in. Then there's also the artists. Right? There's ballet shoes. There's things that those specialized shoes allow you to do with your body. There's rock climbing shoes. It's when we take sort of - and actually I'll add one more to that and that is a lot of the real specialized shoes which I think that a lot of people are missing - and I did some work with the company Nike - is that those shoes are really built for a particular sport. A particular need. But then because we identify with the tool of the trade, we want to put on, it's like a jersey but for your feet. It's like, "I want to wear what the pros are wearing." I don't need a number on my back. Why? I don't need to be identified ... I don't have a helmet on. We've sort of taken these tools of the trade and adopted them as part of the cultural uniform. And just to recognize that that's maybe just a cultural thing that we do, but you can leave a lot of things behind. Not just the shoes for the trade but also maybe some of the movement. I'm just thinking of ballet, again, where I would work with a lot of people who learned turn out in the way that you might move across a stage. But then parlay that into going across the grocery store. Walking in their home. They're taking some of the tools of the trade and embodying them 100% of the time. So it's not to say that those movements, or those shoes for that matter, are a problem. It's just when they're exclusively how we use our body. So I love the concept of active recovery. I think a lot of people are missing out on active recovery. And I agree that minimal footwear, even if you didn't want to wear minimal footwear all the time, it's a great way to, if you're not a mover very often, to add some movement. And if you're an avid mover in a particular specialized way, to bulk up your general movement without having to engage in a particular sport or fitness session.
BRAD: Yeah. For sure. The feet are the beginning of all complex connetic change activity in the body. Everything that you do is initiating from the foot. Even throwing a ball, you can imagine how the feet are transferring weight and you're moving your hips and shoulders and everything. But boy, as an athlete who has had a lot of history of foot problems that were from moderate to severe - I had Achilles tendon surgery a couple of years ago. And that as from a high impact sprinting program. And of course that was the driving factor in the injury. However, the better my feet can be in overall strength and functionality, the more injury resilient I'm going to be when I put on crazy shoes and do crazy workouts. So it's about that lifestyle transition where first and foremost you want to go barefoot as much as possible in life, in your home, and in other safe areas - the beach or walking on astroturf field or whatever you seem as safe. But then you want to get the most barefoot authentic footwear you can find and use those for as many things as you can. And kind of go on this tiered, long term vision of transitioning to that barefooted inspired lifestyle which is the great stuff that you promote with your movement nutrition. And it's one of the biggest ones, arguably, is getting those feet strong.
KATY: Well, right. And so for those out there who hear the idea of lifestyle transition and feel overwhelmed, we're really just talking about shoe style transition. Right? It doesn't have to be any more a part of your life than just making a different choice in the morning getting dressed. It's so small. It doesn't have to be big.
BRAD: It's so small, yeah.
KATY: Well thank you for a philosophical conversation around Peluva Footwear and so much more. Always a pleasure talking with you, Brad.
BRAD: Thank you, Katy!
JEANNETTE: Thank you Katy and Brad. I really enjoyed that conversation. And particularly the reframing of how you don't have to be all in with a minimal shoe. You can spend some time doing your work or your sport that requires a shoe that is not minimal. But then you can spend all that other time outside with your minimal shoes. So I really enjoyed that. Because I think we can become very...
KATY: Dogmatic?
JEANNETTE: ...dogmatic, again, dogmatic about things. And that was really refreshing to hear that from both of you.
KATY: Yeah. Well, I think we forget that we're here. It's really hard to keep making arguments of all this is completely terrible when we're here. We're doing the thing. And we understand that humans are highly adaptable. And that doesn't mean that we should try to adapt very hard in one direction towards something that ultimately has consequences. But that, you know, if you want to eat the thing 15 percent of the time, or wear the shoes 15 percent - probably not going to be much of an issue. And just to stay sort of flexible and nuanced about it all, I think, is our way forward.
JEANNETTE: I really appreciated that. In both conversations actually.
KATY: That's our theme.
JEANNETTE: Yeah. A flexible approach. Letting dogmatic go.
KATY: Well and that's what Act Psychology is. It's psychological flexibility. And I think it has to do with flexible thinking. Rigid thinking, rigid arteries, rigid hips - they all get you into a place where you're not that adaptable and to change. And I think if we need anything right now it's awareness and fluidity. It's holding the complexity and not being rigid or dogmatic. To really look at every moment and going, "What would be really healthy." Healthy in all aspects right now. And you can find information about Peluva and all of our other Dynamic Collective in the show notes. And let's talk about where can people find show notes. The show notes always live on the website.
JEANNETTE: They do indeed.
KATY: Nutritious Movement in the podcast section. And also...
JEANNETTE: They also come out on a summary of some of the resources. And links to our sponsors are also on the show notes in whatever kind of app, whether you listen to Apple podcasts, they come out in that app as well. If you're on Spotify, if you're on Apple Podcasts, it's a shorter version. If you want the full transcript then go to the website.
KATY: Yeah, full transcripts are on the website. Show notes which are the links to anything that we mentioned. In this case Dynamic Sponsors, the books that we mentioned, and as well as the full episode of Kelly McGonigal and Diana Hill and I, that all lives in the show notes. You can always just visit that section there. And quick link. That's the nice thing. It quickly takes you to where you want to go. Well thank you, Jeannette. And thank you for, listener out there, for listening to this episode which has been brought to you by our Dynamic Collective of Smart Playrooms, Venn Design, Correct Toes, Wildling, Movemate, and Peluva. To make sure you don't miss an episode and keep up to date with what's coming up, including getting the "I Know I Should Exercise But ..." book, we should put a link to that in the show notes too! Be sure to follow or subscribe to our podcast wherever you like to listen to your audio shows. And if you have any questions for us or even topics that you would like to address, send them to podcast@nutritiousmovement.com. Have a great day!
JEANNETTE: Bye!
(Theme music)
Hi, my name's Kirsty from Sterling in Scotland. This has been Move Your DNA with Katy Bowman and Jeannette Loram, a podcast about movement. We hope you find the general information in this podcast informative and helpful, but it is not intended to replace medical advice and should not be used as such. This podcast is edited by Chris McClaren, good old Scottish name, transcribed by Annette Yen, and our theme music is performed by Dan MacCormack, another good one! Make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to audio. And find out more about Katy, her books, and her movement programs at NutritiousMovement.com.
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